@sinbach I know the obvious answer is that he's wrong, but the more I've sat here and thought about it the more I think he may have miscommunicated.
I suppose MAYBE it's possible that he's suggesting that God sees our potential - the version of ourselves that he created us to be without all our mess and our sin, and in some way that is who we really are in his sight.
But that only goes so far - the only way we get there is by dying to self, renewing our mind, and ultimately by being *transformed* to become more like Christ.
It's actually an interesting conversation
@bethany my knee jerk reaction is also to join the mob and say how wrong he is, but when i think more about what he said, I can't say that I passionately disagree as much as other believers feel I should.
Are we created by the Creator? Are we not created in the image of God? Does God create us imperfect? Is the image of God not perfect?
What if the "New Creation" as referred to in the Bible refers to resurrection of Christ in us and our sinful man being crucified? Would it not reason then that the sinful nature that we have was not created by God, but is removed by God and when it is removed, we are that which He created at birth? What if the us - the REAL us - is not the sinful man, but sin steals our identity, thus when our sinful nature is crucified - we are made new to be the one we were created to be from the beginning?
Just a thought.
@bethany I did a podcast on this subject. like you, I am not defending the intentions of this pastor, BUT the subject matter is worthy of unpacking more and possibly debating with one another.
@sinbach I think almost everything is worthy of unpacking more and possibly debating with one another 😁
@sinbach @bethany Sinobach, you have some good points there. What I do know is when the Holy Spirit brought my heart to reckon with sins power over me and convicted me of sin, and brought His work of repentance in my heart and then brought believing faith to my heart, there was something marvelous that happened inwardly. After that I began to recognize a continual presence in the my heart that wasn’t there before. It was the Holy Spirit. When the presence of God is in the heart that is something new. When we walk in the newness of life a new spiritual dynamic is in our heart and the heart knows it, senses it. It doesn’t automatically change our type of personality but a transforming power is at work within us and the heart is in tune to it more and more. Those are some of the new qualities at core of the heart in the “new creature.” Maybe this is the essence of the new person. God is resident in the heart now and manifesting Himself through the new follower of Christ bring change.
@MiBurrito i agree with everything you wrote because I felt it too when I became a believer.
I have thought about this some more and I realized that my soul is eternal. it will live forever in heaven or hell. It is neither male or female. It is neither old or young. my soul was created perfect by God and i was perfect when I was created in my mother's womb. Sin tainted me and kept me from being who God created me to be - the real me. When I was saved, I was made pure again, without the stain of sin, and transformed to what the Creator had created me for. I was always made for His purpose but the chains of sin made me a slave. I was never created to be a slave, but when I was forgiven by Jesus` blood, I was finally made free. my identity is therefore found in Christ because He gave it to me. He transformed my sinful nature and restored my kingdom identity that I was given at creation.
@sinbach @bethany I am happy that your first thought is to believe the best, not the worst, and be merciful. I've seen many sharings of this quote on SOME. It might be either or... but my own experience is that it's very difficult to discuss theological stuff on social media in only a few words. Especially to get a short quote right, or to share your beliefs in a couple of sentences. Articles and pods are better.
@sinbach that's exactly how I feel, interestingly. Is it a potentially damaging message without context? Yes. I think so. I recently heard a pastor online say "it doesn't matter if you don't believe in God, because God believes in you".... I almost vomited.
So the suggestion of perfection I think is unhelpful. But if his point really is entirely wrong, that would remove every aspect of individuality from every believer. We'd be clones who all looked and acted the same, which is not God's design. Are we transformed as we become more like Christ? Yes. But by doing so, we die to self, to flesh and to the world and we're left with who God ultimately intended us to be. I think.
Just a thought.